CARLO: Let's give it a couple seconds for the thing to start. Okay, it's February 8, about 9 a.m. I'm inside of San Quentin Prison's death row with Richard Ramirez. So, Richard, we'll be discussing some topics; you were just talking about death and what it means to society-would you continue?
RAMIREZ: Uh…now I'm freezing up! [laughter]

CARLO: So you find death funny?
RAMIREZ: No, I just think society is fascinated with death. Instead of giving it just a little part in this project you're doing…you should devote enough space to it because-

CARLO: What about How We Die-what's that about? That book How We Die you told me about…
RAMIREZ: It talks about how people take death in…today, today's society. Long ago, it was taken as a spiritual thing because birth and death are two very major events, not only in the person being born and also dying, but in the people around them and the legacy that we leave behind. In today's society, it's more of the scientific and medical aspects that are most talked about in death. And in this book, it tells about how different people die and different ways of dying…

CARLO: Different cultures?
RAMIREZ: Different cultures, I believe. I've read reviews on it; I haven't read the book myself. I've read reviews and it says there is such a thing as a death rattle; there is such a thing and it is a spasm of the voice box.

CARLO: You mean it's like the last breath?
RAMIREZ: Yes. [tape shuts off]

CARLO: About this death rattle-I've read about it a lot myself but I've never heard it. Have you heard it?
RAMIREZ: [Gets up and starts to walk out]

CARLO: Hey, c'mon back!
RAMIREZ: No, I haven't heard it!

CARLO: Describe-
RAMIREZ: What I think it would sound like?

CARLO: Yeah man.
RAMIREZ: It's the last…breathing out. It's one last breath out, I don't think it's one last breath in…

CARLO: The last breath out.
RAMIREZ: Right.

CARLO: And…what does it sound like?
RAMIREZ: I assume, I suppose, it-whoever is witnessing such a thing-it is sort of like the spirit leaving the body at the same moment this breath is given. But…uh…okay; some people actually fight, cling to life, some people even ask permission from their loved ones if…to die. See, because they don't want to leave their loved ones.

CARLO: What does the rattle sound like, and why? It's the last breath going out but does it affect the voice box?
RAMIREZ: It is a spasm of the voice box.

CARLO: It's a spasm of the voice box…I see.
RAMIREZ: Yes, I would assume it doesn't sound like any breath we take during our lifetimes. It is sort of like when a baby is born and he is slapped on the bottom, he takes a deep breath in. These things are to me mystical and spiritual, in that we don't experience them every day. When these things happen, we take notice. We have to. I don't think it's possible to not detect such things unless you're really stupid.

CARLO: Speaking of spirituality, let's talk about Satanism. There's been a lot in the press, Richard, about your devotion to and your affiliation with Satan. Can you tell a bit about what Satan means to you?
RAMIREZ: What Satan means to me…Satan is a stabilizing force in my life. It gives me a reason to be; it gives me…an excuse to rationalize. There is a part of me that believes he really does exist. I have my doubts, but we all do, about many things.

CARLO: When did you first turn away from Christianity-as I know you were brought up a Christian-and turn to Satanism?
RAMIREZ: From 1970-well, throughout my childhood and up to the time I was eighteen years old, I believed in God. Seventeen, eighteen years old. Then, for two or three years, I became sort of like an Atheist-I didn't believe in anything. When I reached the age of twenty, twenty-one thereabouts, I met a guy in jail and, uh…he told me about Satan and I picked it up from there. (Richard had been arrested for stealing a car.) I read books and I studied and I examined who I was and what my feelings were. Also, my actions. Just like the Hezbollah and different terrorist religious organizations around the world-it is a driving force that motivates them to do things and they believe in it whole-heartedly. It had the same effect on my life.

CARLO: In other words, their spirituality was what was the driving force in their life, and Satan became, in a sense, your spirituality and the driving force behind you.
RAMIREZ: Yeah, exactly.

CARLO: Richard, do you believe that Satan helps people who…[tape shuts off]

CARLO: Richard, do you believe that Satan helps people to be able to do things they wouldn't normally do? For instance, in Matamoras, Mexico, Adolfo Constanzo killed many people and he was committing human sacrifices to protect the Hernandez drug cartel down there from the police, and he fervently believed that Satan would protect him and so therefore made human sacrifices. Do you feel that kind of reasoning has any place-
RAMIREZ: -place in Satanism?

CARLO: Yeah.
RAMIREZ: I don't know the structure of Hell itself, or demons or demonology, but I do know when you tamper with witchcraft, when you tamper with Satanism, be it voodoo-

CARLO: -Santeria, Tayo Mayombe-
RAMIREZ: Yeah, any type of sacrifices or contacting the spirits, you're dealing with things that are very delicate-and dangerous. I myself am no warlock, I'm not a wizard. I'm not one of these types of individuals that knows his witchcraft from A to Z. But, I have heard and read of instances where people end up getting killed and…uh…arrested for tampering with the wrong demons and not using the right types of…uh…the right process of sacrifices and the right types of rituals. You have to know what you're doing. Everything from ropes to chalices-

CARLO: Everything has to be done right.
RAMIREZ: Exactly. From what I know, certain symbols-like Pentagrams-are supposed to protect you from the demons themselves.

CARLO: Yeah. You were seen in court once with a Pentagram inside your hand and you held it up and showed it to the press and the audience. Why did you do that? Did you feel that it would protect you, or were you just making a statement that you were in alliance with the Devil?
RAMIREZ: Yes, it was a statement that I was in alliance with…the evil that is inherent in human nature. And…that was who I was.

CARLO: Richard, tell us about the Marquis de Sade. I know that since you've been incarcerated, which is about eight years, you've been reading an awful lot and one of the things you've read is the Marquis de Sade.
RAMIREZ: De Sade had a large…uh…a large…somewhat large following in his time. He had a philosophy, a way of thinking that was contrary to what people of his time thought and eventually he paid the price for it. They placed him in an insane asylum, where he died. His belief was that there was pleasure in painful sex. He wrote many stories, short stories; one of my favorites was "Justine." He talked about the governments and how there were oppressors.

CARLO: Hypocritical?
RAMIREZ: Huh?

CARLO: And hypocritical?
RAMIREZ: Hypocritical. Takers away-they took away rights that belonged to individuals.

CARLO: Sexual rights, sexual freedoms?
RAMIREZ: Yes.

CARLO: But essentially de Sade was a sadist, right?
RAMIREZ: Yes, yes. He liked to inflict pain.

CARLO: He liked to inflict pain.
RAMIREZ: Inflict pain…

CARLO: Right. Do you feel he was ahead of his time in a sense? Do you feel he knew something about human nature-and explored it-that other people seemed to deny?
RAMIREZ: Well, I believe that-as time goes by, mankind will find new and different ways of living. Let's see…and…uh…he may have been ahead of his time, or maybe he just came about at the right time with his ways of thinking.

CARLO: I believe they had the death penalty in the time period de Sade was alive.
RAMIREZ: I think it was the guillotine.

CARLO: The guillotine.
RAMIREZ: I think this…he…uh…all this took place in or about France.

CARLO: They did not give him a death sentence for his practices, but they indeed locked him up for the entirety of his natural life, but-
RAMIREZ: Because of the stories he wrote.

CARLO: Because of the stories he wrote?
RAMIREZ: I believe.

CARLO: They went against society. But what are your feelings about the death sentence, Richard? [tape shuts off]

CARLO: So, Richard, over the last ten years or so, there's been a lot in the press and there indeed have been a lot of people arrested all over the country for committing what amounts to a series of murders. These individuals are called serial killers because they kill in a series of crimes. Would you tell us why you think there's such a phenomenal number of serial killers being identified and captured these days?
RAMIREZ: You asked me why I think there's an abundance of serial killers…right?

CARLO: In society today.
RAMIREZ: Right, in society today. I believe that…uh…tension in the workplace, and also lack of jobs, and the way families are…are brought up, and child abuse, sure…it's like a recipe. Drugs, poverty, child abuse-all this creates angry individuals. And, then again, lust killers-people tend to lump all serial killers in the same category, but there are different types of serial killers, as you know.

CARLO: What are the different types of serial killers, Richard?
RAMIREZ: Some serial killers kill prostitutes, some serial killers kill young boys…uh…some serial killers kill homeless people. The only common denominator is that they kill people over a span of time. They keep on killing and…uh…

CARLO: The phenomenon of serial killers-is it a sexual thing, too, Richard? Is sex part of the crimes?
RAMIREZ: Sex? For some serial killers, sure. For some it is the very act of killing another human being that is…that …uh…that is sexual to them. It's a bloodlust, I guess you can say.

CARLO: Do you think a person who becomes like that is responsive to a bloodlust because of genetic propensity or because of environmental influences, or both?
RAMIREZ: Both. Very good. You oughta be-[tape shuts off]

CARLO: You think it's a combination of genetic and environmental influences.
RAMIREZ: Yes. Serial killers and most killers in general have a dead conscience.

CARLO: When you say a dead conscience that means they don't respond-
RAMIREZ: No morals, no scruples, no conscience. They are…uh…they sometimes…some of them don't even care if they live or die themselves and they are just the walking dead.

CARLO: The first really noted serial killer was Jack The Ripper.
RAMIREZ: Yeah.

CARLO: He killed seven prostitutes in London in the 1800s.
RAMIREZ: Yes.

CARLO: I think there were other serial killers loose and participating in those types of activities but they just never got the press that Jack got.
RAMIREZ: Jack The Ripper created an aura around himself, or maybe the media did.

CARLO: The press…
RAMIREZ: But it was one of mystique and…uh…a sinister character who was never identified. I remember in my childhood reading about him and I was intrigued by the way this…uh…killer, Jack The Ripper, was depicted. Wears a black cloak-

CARLO: Right-
RAMIREZ:-Fog-

CARLO: -Right-
RAMIREZ:-Nighttime-most of the time, the media tends to, if not glorify, but…paint him in a way that is very sinister and diabolical and to some of us, that is appealing. Certainly, it was to me. [tape shuts off]

CARLO: Why do you think it was particularly appealing to you? It seems appealing to everybody…
RAMIREZ: Well, not everybody.

CARLO: People are interested, though.
RAMIREZ: Sure, I mean…they're interested, they're curious, but I don't think you could call it…I don't think they would call it appealing. I think people are…some people are fascinated by looking at how other people, such as killers, become who they are and how there are different types of people in the world. Certainly madmen in the world are something to look at because they are very…they are a minority in numbers.

CARLO: Do you think Jack The Ripper was a madman?
RAMIREZ: A madman?

CARLO: Yeah.
RAMIREZ: Some say-he was a doctor…I couldn't say…

CARLO: Was he a psychopath?
RAMIREZ: A psychopath?

CARLO: Yes.
RAMIREZ: I could not tell you. I couldn't say. From what I've read about him, certainly he…if you came into his hands and...if you were a woman, certainly you would think this guy was mad. He would butcher you, he would cut your organs out and stuff and lay them right beside you in a very precise manner. Uh…madman…yes, there are certain types of mental illnesses, mental disorders that would characterize him as a madman.

CARLO: Richard, how would you suggest that people can become-can avoid becoming the victim of a serial killer?
RAMIREZ: There are ways…

CARLO: How can society protect itself-
RAMIREZ: There is no protection against a mass murderer, if you will. A mass murderer will come onto the scene-whether it be a post office, supermarket, restaurant-and open fire. Unless the bullets miss you, you will become a statistic. A serial killer, if he's looking for certain type of women, certain type of victims, and you happen to match his preference…it is possible that you could get away. You could even help in apprehending him, but it is said serial killers are very intelligent, otherwise they would not-

CARLO: They would not be able to commit crimes over a long period of time.
RAMIREZ: Exactly. What constitutes a serial killer right now is four murders or more, according to the FBI. Four murders is not that many but that's what categorizes a serial killer. I suppose to avoid being a victim is-

CARLO: -Being aware of the environment, being aware what's around you?
RAMIREZ: -taking precautions, locking your doors, having your keys ready when you open doors…being on guard.

CARLO: Your keys ready when?
RAMIREZ: When you open doors.

CARLO: Look over your shoulder?
RAMIREZ: Yes. Of course, one cannot live one's life like that in today's society, always aware. Especially if you haven't already been the victim of a crime. When you are the victim of a crime, a violent crime such as an assault or mugging, then throughout your life that will be at the back of your mind. Those types of people are more aware than those who have never been a victim of any type of crime. But, sure, a serial killer takes opportunities, in the victims being in the right place at the right time. He takes advantage of that.

CARLO: In other words, people are a victim of circumstance. But how can a woman be more insulated and more protected from a serial killer?
RAMIREZ: It's not possible because…to detectives…to apprehend a serial killer, they need to get inside the mind of the serial killer. Normal, ordinary people do not think like a serial killer. They have no conception of what is going on in a killer's mind, how he operates. They don't read, which is rightfully so…if they have a life to live, they're not going to spend a lot of time reading up on killers if that's not in their interest. Certainly, serial killers and killers have the advantage in that they use the element of surprise…uh…darkness, and such things as this…

CARLO: I see one of the conventional ways police manage to apprehend people who kill one another is usually the victim is known by their killer. But in serial murders, the victim is not known by their killer and therefore the conventional aspects that help homicide detectives-[tape shuts off]

CARLO: Do you think one of the reasons why serial killers are so successful in their crimes, and are able to go on for years and years, is because the police are not equipped to deal with this new phenomenon of serial murder, in that they don't have systems set up to help identify, categorize and apprehend?
RAMIREZ: Once they have a suspect, because of…the progress that has been made in forensics and all the new other evidence-gathering techniques, once they have a suspect there is a good chance they will catch the serial killer, because we all leave particles of ourselves wherever we are. So…yes, it is difficult for police. They are at a disadvantage because these are stranger-to-stranger crimes, and it will always be so. I don't think that can change.

CARLO: You mentioned that people always leave a bit of themselves behind and with today's technology, it makes it somewhat easier for them to identify serial killers. In an instance where a naked body is left out in a field and…uh…there are no clues left behind, it becomes virtually impossible, doesn't it?
RAMIREZ: Yes.

CARLO: Right. Can you suggest, Richard, to women out there-
RAMIREZ: Okay, there is no set rule, there is no proof positive, that once you come into contact with a serial killer that you will survive the encounter. There is no assurance of any of that because every individual is different and the same goes for every serial killer. Some serial killers will let you live if you talk to them, if you get to them, if they get to know you; some serial killers will take pity while others won't. This not only applies to serial killers but killers in general. Some killers are hell-bent on just killing regardless of circumstances or situation. They have made up their minds even before they encounter you and…uh…there is no way out of it. The victim is at a disadvantage because she or he does not know the mind of the killer or what he is thinking.

CARLO: You once told me that-[tape shuts off]

CARLO: -about what they call "the devil's dandruff"-cocaine, which is really prevalent in society today. What are your thoughts on cocaine, Richard?
RAMIREZ: I love it! [laughs] No, well…if you look at it in broad views, it's a supply-and-demand type of thing. I saw a show not too long ago where the CIA, I believe, actually had been working with this stuff to get arms to the Contras and stuff like that. That's on a big scale, but on a street level, I think cocaine is addictive and I think it's very harmful to the body.

CARLO: What about to the mind?
RAMIREZ: To the mind, sure. It depends on how you ingest it. If you mainline it, I've heard and read that it can cause brain clots that lead to strokes. Sure, it's harmful, but the sense of pleasure it gives is very profound!

CARLO: What could you compare that sense of pleasure to, Richard?
RAMIREZ: There is nothing…to me, anyway, that comes near it.

CARLO: You once described it to me as an intense euphoric heat, a rush, a light tingling that goes to the brain.
RAMIREZ: Exactly.

CARLO: Your feelings about capital punishment in this country are very profound.
RAMIREZ: You better take away that CIA shit-[tape shuts off]

CARLO: Your feelings, your opinions about the death penalty in this country are profound. Would you tell me your feelings about the death sentence?
RAMIREZ: As far as the death penalty is concerned, I think it is a power against the powerless. There are not many millionaires on death row. A lot of people choose to die, though; a lot of people, a lot of murder defendants actually get on the witness stand and tell the jury that they want the death penalty. They would rather die than spend the rest of their lives in prison. The death penalty is…to me…is not a very dignified way. They should have gladiator arenas like in the old Roman times because what I…it's just…you know, it doesn't seem right.

CARLO: Do you think that the government does not have the right to take a life, or do you feel that in certain crimes-
RAMIREZ: Well, they're doing it for the victims. If the relatives of the victims want the killer's blood…uh…I think one of the relatives should pull the plug, the switch. But they leave it up to the state and…uh…that is something to look at. I've given it a lot of thought and I've written some things down but I don't have-

CARLO: How do you feel about it only being in thirteen states, as opposed to it being in every state across the board?
RAMIREZ: Right. Well, the way crime is going nowadays, it'll probably end up being in a lot of states in the future. People in different parts of the country feel differently about it and it's ultimately up to the people in every state. They vote for it and some states vote yes and some vote no, they don't want it.

CARLO: Richard, do you think the death penalty is a deterrent?
RAMIREZ: No. No. Most criminals, the majority of criminals kill for…money, to get money for drugs. Some are not in their right minds, some are drunk…they kill for greed, lust, and things like this…and, uh…so, no, I don't think it acts as a deterrent because a criminal rarely thinks about his own death when committing a crime where such emotions as rage and hatred take hold of him. So, very little thought is given to his own demise when such feelings are raging inside of him at the time that he commits a murder or a crime. [tape shuts off]
RAMIREZ: See, governments kill with impunity and sometimes they choose killers to go out and kill people for them. They justify it, they rationalize it, they pin medals on killers. Well, if you don't have a license to kill for the government, they won't pin a medal on you but they'll put you in the gas chamber.

CARLO: Do you think the gas chamber is cruel and unusual punishment? If a state has to have the death penalty, which way do you think is the best route to go? The electric chair, lethal injection, or the gas chamber?
RAMIREZ: That is up to the individual on which way he wants to go.

CARLO: Richard, as we sit here, you've got nineteen death sentences on your head.
RAMIREZ: Yeah.

CARLO: If…after your appeals are all exhausted and the day comes when you have to be executed by the State of California, which way would you choose?
RAMIREZ: Me myself, I don't really care because death is death and it is said that no man knows his own death. Sure, for a few minutes you might feel it-but then you're gone. I've really not given much thought to that. To me death is death and whichever way I choose to go out, I'll choose it when the time comes-if there is a choice open to me.

CARLO: Certain of the most notorious serial killers produced by society are Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas…what do you think of a guy like Ted Bundy?
RAMIREZ: Say what?

CARLO: What do you think about Ted Bundy?
RAMIREZ: See, when serial killers come up in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago-these are media centers of the world. That's why more attention is paid to these guys, because of where they are located at. I've heard of serial killers in the Midwest who you've never even heard of but they've got twenty, thirty murders under their belts. As far as my views on Ted Bundy-was that your question? Ted Bundy was intelligent. He…he grew up and he found…in his mind…his own pleasures. These were his pleasures. A man's own pleasures are his own business, I think. He…he liked to do what he did, which was kidnap women, have sex with them, torture them, and kill them and whatever else. On the outside, to whomever he met on the street, he seemed like a very normal man, one you would never suspect of doing such things.

CARLO: It seems that many serial killers on the outside seem very innocuous, like the guy next door. For instance, Jeffrey Dahmer: of all the things he looks like, he does not look like a killer. What are your feelings about a fellow like Jeffrey Dahmer who on the outside seemed so normal but inside is far from normal?
RAMIREZ: I guess you could say like…the balances of the mind, the chemistry, the psyche of a killer-a wolf in sheep's clothing, and he has learned to perfect it. Uh…this is a guy you think it'd be okay to go to his house, have a drink, and smoke a joint, but it would be your last drink because you'd find yourself handcuffed and the next thing you know, this guy would be eating you. This is a very…uh…very interesting thing to look at in life. These types of individuals…because they're extra-ordinary. It's sort of like a strange car, a strange house. You ask yourself, "How was it built? How did it get here?" I've always been fascinated with killers, and crime, and murder, and death. I suppose I started when I was twelve years old.· I started reading crime detective magazines and stuff like this and even the pages had a certain scent to them, a certain smell to them. It was very strange; it gave me a strange feeling.

CARLO: Can you explain the feeling?
RAMIREZ: Strange, because I had experienced the death of people I knew at an early age. I was four or five years old when I knew about a death of a friend of my father's. Then when I was nine I went to my grandfather's funeral. It's just…death had a very profound effect on me when I saw it. Death of my dog, death of a pet animal-just death.

CARLO: Do you feel that there's a life after death, that there really is a Heaven and Hell?
RAMIREZ: I couldn't say for sure what there is, you know? I can't sit here and tell you, "Yes, there's this or that," because I'm not sure. I can only speculate.

CARLO: Well, what do you speculate?
RAMIREZ: I think there is…uh…a divine force that is out there. I also believe there's a malevolent force that is out there. Then again, they could be one and the same. I also believe some in reincarnation. I mean, how do these child prodigies come about? A young child being able to play the piano very well at the age of three years old…everything is open. I have an open mind.

CARLO: Do you feel that evil can be reincarnated?
RAMIREZ: I hope so. [laughs]

CARLO: Like a killer like Jack The Ripper could come back in the form of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer?
RAMIREZ: Yes, especially if…Satan grants that wish to the individual. If Lucifer gives his unworthy servant that opportunity, that chance. Satan would be saying to me right now, "Yes, you are unworthy."·

CARLO: Richard, what are your feelings and opinions about women who are drawn to mass murderers and serial killers? It seems to be a phenomenon, somewhat prevalent in society today…
RAMIREZ: A short comment on serial killers is that-is it a recipe that is created in their existence or is it a bad seed, chemistry, genetics?

CARLO: Is it environmental you're saying? What do you think?
RAMIREZ: That's a good question. Is there such a thing as a bad seed when a baby is born? Is he already a serial killer, already made, or is he created by his own deeds and feelings throughout his life and his environment?

CARLO: It's a new field of science but the connection between genetic propensity towards violence, as opposed to our environmental influences-indeed it's been proven and established that without certain chemical balances, people have much greater proclivity towards violence, sexual deviance, drug abuse, alcoholism…
RAMIREZ: I've heard that a lot of serial killers-John Gacy, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer-have had head trauma, head injuries when they were young. They were knocked out and so-like I told you the other day, I saw a show, 48 Hours, where this doctor came out saying that there are pieces of brain, areas of the brain that are not functioning right, so that's always a possibility.

CARLO: Getting back to women who are drawn to serial killers and mass murderers, what are your feelings about that? Why do you think that happens?
RAMIREZ: Women…when I was on the street, I was a loner. I stayed to myself. I really had no contact with people. It's only been since I've been in prison that I have really developed relationships with people, and mostly women, though I now see that they have feelings, they have emotions…I mean, I always did but I suppose I locked it out most of the time. I didn't think about other people's feelings and needs.

CARLO: These women that you're making reference to, do you think they were drawn to you because of your notoriety?
RAMIREZ: Oh, they're drawn to me for all sorts of reasons.

CARLO: Such as what, Richard?
RAMIREZ: To get something out of me, to question me. Maybe they're intrigued by murder or murderers…some are religious, some are sympathetic-you know, they have sympathy for me. Some come just so they can tell their friends they came and talked to me. They've come to me from different walks of life, these women.

CARLO: Since your incarceration, which has been eight years, how many women would you say have come to visit you?
RAMIREZ: Nine years come this August. What was your question?

CARLO: How many women have come to visit you since you've been arrested?
RAMIREZ: It doesn't matter.

CARLO: Six hundred?
RAMIREZ: It doesn't matter.

CARLO: It doesn't matter…[tape shuts off]

CARLO: Okay. [tape shuts off]

CARLO: Okay. Do you think that child abuse has anything to do with the development of serial killers?
RAMIREZ: Oh, it has everything to do with development of all malfunctions in the adult life. Child abuse, in its many forms, can…uh…produce many forms of…uh…life's miseries and griefs as an adult, you know? Mental disorders and such. Me myself, I've never experienced child abuse.

CARLO: You're laughing now. Why?
RAMIREZ: No, wait a minute! [tape shuts off]
RAMIREZ: Not more so than anybody else, Phil.

CARLO: Well…so-[tape shuts off]

CARLO: You say a lot of people think serial killers should be studied.
RAMIREZ: Right.

CARLO: What do you mean?
RAMIREZ: Well, I've seen on TV a lot of people speak and say that serial killers should be studied. Me myself, I care about my life and already my life went downhill; it's already in the shit right now. I don't really give a fuck, you know what I'm saying? I don't concern myself with those types of decisions anymore because they have no effect on me; I'm on death row. So whatever society wants to do, they can do, you know? The legislators, the senators, all the lawmakers, they're the ones that make the decisions and the laws.

CARLO: What's it like living on death row, Richard?
RAMIREZ: Death row?

CARLO: Yeah.
RAMIREZ: It is monotonous, it is boring…because it is so boring it breeds tension. There's a lot of tension in here. Frustration…you never get used to it. I myself only tolerate it. I have acquaintances, no friends. Every day it's the same routine. The walls close in on you. It is like…uh…some people, though-every individual has his own program, has his own way of dealing with being incarcerated. Some can…it doesn't affect them at all-or so they say. Me myself, I try and not let the situation deteriorate my mind to a point where I will go crazy, where I will lose a sense of reality. I always try and keep a sense of reality with me. Uh…sometimes it feels very strange to wake up and be in that cage, in that cell and…uh…I don't think man was meant to be locked up in such a way. Maybe they had a thing going on in the Western days where they would just lynch the guy right off the bat, see what I'm saying, but they don't do it now like that.

CARLO: Do you think that's a better answer?
RAMIREZ: No, I'm not-I'm not-I'm not saying that. I'm saying that that is what they used to do back then. I'm sure the people they hung back then would have wanted to live in a cage, see what I'm saying, especially if they were innocent-but they were lynched anyway.

CARLO: How many hours a day are you actually in your cell?
RAMIREZ: Well, like I told you, the program they have me on now-which is maximum security-I got out sixteen hours a week. So…

CARLO: So, are you locked up twenty-four hours a day?
RAMIREZ: On some days, some days yeah. I go outside for about five hours on Tuesday, I got out five hours on Friday and I go out five hours on Sunday. The rest of the time I am on death row. Everybody has a single-man cell.

CARLO: How's the food on death row?
RAMIREZ: Edible.

CARLO: Are you able to eat with the prisoners on death row or do you-
RAMIREZ: They feed us in our cages.

CARLO: Richard, a lot's been said about you listening to heavy metal music with Satanic overtones. What influences, musically, inspired you?
RAMIREZ: Well, you might do some research on this, but I think it is believed that Satan was the one that made music in Heaven before he got thrown down into the pit. I'm not sure. A lot of religious people think that Satan-melodies-people believe Elvis and The Beatles with their gyrations and the beat of their music were conductive to a trance-like…uh…form of…uh…for people that they would become possessed with the music. Like I said, me myself, I'm not sure of it-but I have an opinion-but I don't think music drives anybody to do anything. People…uh…when they're feeling bad, they listen to a song and they feel better.

CARLO: When you were on the outside, Richard, before you got arrested, you listened to a lot of heavy metal music. Did it influence you?
RAMIREZ: Influence me? It gave me a good sense of being, but the being of what I was was already there before the music. The music just inspired me, it gave me inspiration. It reflected my feelings.

CARLO: What was some of the music that inspired you and reflected your feelings? Tell us.
RAMIREZ: Hmm…heavy beats-

CARLO: Like what groups? What album?
RAMIREZ: AC/DC…uh…Back in Black album, Highway To Hell album…uh…Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest-

CARLO: What about "Eyes Without a Face?"
RAMIREZ: -Iron Maiden.

CARLO: This is music you listened to a lot when you were on the outside?
RAMIREZ: Yes. I would have a walkman all the time and I would take cassettes with me to play in the cars. Uh…so, that was it.

CARLO: There was a song by AC/DC called "The Night Stalker"-
RAMIREZ: "Night Prowler."

CARLO: "The Night Prowler." Did you used to listen to that?
RAMIREZ: No, Phil, I didn't! [hysterical laughter] [tape shuts off]

CARLO: So, did you listen to…uh…"Night Prowler?"
RAMIREZ: No, I listened to Billy Idol-"Flesh For Fantasy." He says something about "you see and hear"-no, "You see and hear and you feel my sex attack." You know, lyrics that would reflect my feelings. He has a song called "Eyes Without A Face" that he says…uh…he's on a bus-which I was always on a bus most of the time-and he says that he's reading murder books to stay hip…uh…he's on a psychedelic trip…"Thinking about/ You're out there/ Say your prayers"-you know? And he says…um…"Eyes without a face/ Such a human waste." You know…

CARLO: So, basically, you…uh…listened to this kind of music-the heavy metal-for entertainment. Entertainment to clear your head and to-
RAMIREZ: Give me a sense of well-being.

CARLO: Give you a sense of well-being. Do you think young children, young teenagers, actually, should be kept away from music like that?
RAMIREZ: No, because I believe that a person that…a person that is destined or inclined to be evil will be evil with or without music. Music I don't believe has a part in anything.

CARLO: Even young, impressionable minds?
RAMIREZ: Yes, yes…because I believe that it is the environment that will determine who a child will grow up to be.

CARLO: Richard, when you were ten years old-
RAMIREZ: Or thereabouts.

CARLO: Or thereabouts. Your cousin Mike had just returned from Vietnam and he was stressed because of the war, from being in three tours of duty, and got into an argument one day with his wife and shot her and killed her. You happened to be there that day. Could you tell us how that made you feel, to see that-and later on when you went back with your dad-
RAMIREZ: Well, yes it was-

CARLO: How old were you? Ten or eleven?
RAMIREZ: Thereabouts. I'm not sure, ten or eleven. I can't say for sure, I was probably eleven. It was a sunny day, I had been with Mike that day hanging out and…uh…he got to his house about 3 p.m.-I was with him. The incident happened…uh…he was arrested, taken to jail. His…Mike's mother called my father and my mother a week or two later asking them if they would go into the house and get some things for them. I remember me and my father and my mother going. We parked the truck. Me and my father went inside not knowing what we would find-[tape shuts off]
RAMIREZ: It was the strangest experience. I mean being there after Jessie had been killed. The…the aura of it was still kind of like hanging in the air. It was…kind of mystical. I could still smell her blood. Sunlight was streaming into the room and you could see particles of dust in the golden beams of sunlight.

CARLO: What kind of effect did this all have on you, you think?
RAMIREZ: Strange. I mean to see something like that-the line between life and death right there in front of me. Intense. When she went down I saw it all in slow motion.

CARLO: He shot her in front of you, Richard?
RAMIREZ: Yes, me and my two cousins, his two kids, boys three and six.

CARLO: How close?
RAMIREZ: A few feet away.

CARLO: Your cousin Mike also killed-raped and killed, women over in 'Nam, didn't he?
RAMIREZ: Yes.

CARLO: How do you know?
RAMIREZ: He told me all about it and I saw Polaroid photos he had.

CARLO: Please tell us about that, Richard.
RAMIREZ: He had a shoebox in his closet. It was filled with these Polaroid photographs of women and girls he took into the jungle and did.

CARLO: Did?
RAMIREZ: Raped and killed them. Sisters, even a family, two daughters and the mother. He tore off their clothes and had them naked tied to a tree. In another one there they were dead. He cut off their heads.

CARLO: Did he rape them too?
RAMIREZ: Yeah, of course, while they were tied to the tree, all three of them, in front of each other.

CARLO: He told you this?
RAMIREZ: Yeah, told me all about it…exactly what he did. We used to go for joy rides all around El Paso, smoke pot, listen to the radio and he'd tell me what he did with the women.

CARLO: You know how many he raped and killed?
RAMIREZ: Over twenty for sure. He had photographs of them. Young girls mostly; but all ages. They were the enemy; they were, you know, V.C., no one gave a fuck.

CARLO: What kind…what kind of effect did this have on you?
RAMIREZ: Heavy. I used to think about them, I mean all that.

CARLO: Sexually, Richard?
RAMIREZ: Fuck yeah, of course, sexually. It was all about sex.

CARLO: They were a turn on? The photographs?
RAMIREZ: Yes, very much so.

CARLO: Do you think seeing those pictures helped you walk the road you eventually traveled?
RAMIREZ: It's hard to say. I'm not blaming my cousin for anything; I want that clear. This just happened.

CARLO: He also taught you about jungle warfare, guerilla fighting; how to kill people, correct?
RAMIREZ: Yes, he did. How to use a knife, where to shoot someone. How to be invisible at night…the whole enchilada.

CARLO: Invisible, how?
RAMIREZ: Wear all black, even shoes and socks, with a black hat with the brim pulled down to cover your face so no light can reflect off it. Avoiding the reflection of light, that's the key.

CARLO: Interesting.
RAMIREZ: For me it was all very interesting…I was already stealing, I mean getting into people's houses at night and stealing things and all that helped.

CARLO: Did he teach you how to shoot?
RAMIREZ: No. My dad did. But my cousin told me where to hit someone for the maximum effect.

CARLO: Where?
RAMIREZ: The head, of course.

CARLO: Any particular spot?
RAMIREZ: Above the ear.

CARLO: And the knife, I mean what is the best place to use it?
RAMIREZ: Across the throat. It's called a stab/slash wound. That is you drive the point into the side of the neck then pull it across the throat. That cuts both the windpipe and the arteries, always lethal.

CARLO: I see. [tape shuts off]